Andrew C Bain's space

RC Sproul is an Agnostic - "God's existence uncertain"

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:43:28 GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZTb-_BeJL8

John Piper says to listen to your screaming inner voice

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:42:36 GMT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ggOldk39RY

How to pervert the Gospel

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:06:39 GMT

A Dialogue...

Old Believer -     So I hear you're going to become a pastor.

Young man -     Yes, that's right! I am.

Old Believer -     And may I ask -- what exactly are you going to preach?

Young man -     The Gospel, of course!

Old Believer -     The Gospel? You are a fool, young man. If you do so, you will preach to empty pews.

Young man -     Really? John Piper preaches the Gospel, and he has a very large and respectable congregation. Everyone agrees that he preaches the Gospel. So even though he preaches the Gospel, he's still really popular.

Old Believer -     Are you sure Piper is actually preaching the Gospel? I mean, the Apostles preached "the truth as it is in Jesus" (Eph 4:21) -- they proclaimed the pure simple truth -- and they were not popular.

Young man -     Hmm. Then what do you think I should do? Your comments -- I must admit -- have rather confused me.

Old Believer -     Oh! Your question is easy to answer -- Preach something extremely similar to the gospel. The more similar to it, the better. Do everything possible to stir up your followers. And then present to them something that appears to give peace to their guilty consciences. In other words, after you alarm them then speak of the righteousness of Christ, dwell on the value of his atoning blood and magnify the riches of his free grace. And do this as much as you like.

But make sure you do not stop here.

Along with these doctrines you must slip in hints, that something is required to be done by the creature before he can be assured of his salvation. Let your followers know, that despite of what you said about Christ having "finished salvation", that something must be done by them in order for them to know they are objects of his love. Preach that, "Eternal life is not just knowing some facts about our future, as precious as those facts may be. ... It consists in possessing an intimate personal relationship with the Creator and Redeemer of the world. ... To be certain of eternal life means to be certain of an INTIMATE personal relationship with the Father. And if we have a personal relationship with the Father, then we know that he hears us when we pray according to his will."{1} This way the ground of their confidence is not "the light shining into their heart" (2 Cor 4:6), rather their hope will be based on how sincerely and humbly (how "intimately") they can "walk with God".

Of course, your followers will be left wondering, "Am I sincere enough? And am I truly humble enough?" So you must convince them to be satisfied with the up-and-down confidence that will be tied to their fluctuating intimacy and humility. Preach that, "demand for a kind of absolute, mathematical certainty about [your] right standing with God is asking for too much."{2}. And to justify this, ignore the fact that the Apostles said the Psalms are about Christ alone. Instead, pretend that Psalms like "your wrath lies hard on me" (P88:7) describe the experience of believers. This way they'll believe you when you preach, "God has his reasons why he should leave one of his children feeling so forsaken" {3} If you do this (and assuming you possess a popular personality), you will satisfy your hearers and gain a strong power over their affections.

But beware! Since you value your influence over the people, be careful of saying that the work of salvation is completed by the Son of God himself without reference to any thought, feeling or act on the part of the creature. Be very careful of saying that the believer is assured of his salvation solely by the manifestation of the truth in his conscience. Don't say that faith is simply a passive certainty about the everlasting righteousness without any emotions or commitment.

Because if you say that nothing is required from a man for him to be assured of his salvation, you leave your followers nothing to do in the matter of salvation. If you say that merely having understood and believed the truth is faith, you will deprive their fleshly consciences of something to do. And while under the natural notions of religion your followers will always delight in building their assurance of salvation upon their own sincerity.

So -- Preach a mixed Gospel. Appear to magnify Christ, but in reality magnify the creature by listing things he must do to be assured he is saved. Make sure they base their assurance on their own humility, not on the truth in them. Tell them, "the evidence that the Holy Spirit presents to our own spirits and to the community is first of all the evidence of love. The Spirit puts within us a HUMBLE HEART of love and so gives EVIDENCE of his presence and power..." {4} Make sure it's their own love and humility, not the doctrine of the Gospel in them that will assure them they are saved.

Instead of leading the creature to glory in Christ alone, make him glory in himself. And that way you sneakily set aside the finished salvation of Christ, by causing the creature to suspect that in one way or another he must become his own savior. In his way, you flatter the human pride and have your followers under your power (it so happens that mankind in religious matters love to be deceived, Jeremiah 5:31).

Now, once your followers believe that faith = sincerity, they will never be infallibly assured of their salvation. Since faith = sincerity, when they are less sincere, they will lose their assurance of salvation. "Assurance will diminish in the presence of concealed sin...We must often wait patiently for the return of assurance." {5} And since their assurance depends on their affections (and you control their affections through the power of your personality in your preaching), you will have them surely under your power. Of course, you will need sensitivity and talent to manage all this. But after it is well executed, you will be a popular pastor.

{1} www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/
1985/494_Our_Father_Hears_Us/

{2} When I Don't Desire God, p217-218

{3} When I Don't Desire God, p232

{4} www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1985/
488_Test_the_Spirits_to_See_Whether_They_are_of_God/

{5} www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/
1999/1134_Helping_People_Have_the_Assurance_of_Salvation/

Inconsistent Calvinists

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:04:26 GMT

How often do you hear this ...

"We are in the light as believers. But are there not clouds that hide the complete view of our salvation from us at times? Does God ever use our human doubt to strengthen our spiritual dependance upon Him and His promises? But do not look down upon your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that are experiencing a sin in their life that causes them to not see clearly their savior." (Ethan Beckler, U-Illinois)

"I never doubt my salvation anymore. But I will admit that when I was young in Christ there were times when I wondered." (Josiah Burke, Hawaii)

My response: Hmmm.... Thanks for your comments guys. But the Bible defines a believer as someone with same assurance and confidence as the Apostles (2 Pet 1:1).

NASB: Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

KJV: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Now, Doubting Calvinists say that believers today can doubt their salvation. Yet, the Bible says believers have the same assurance as the Apostles.

No offence, but this puts you guys in a sort of dilemma =) A catch-22.

Either you have to say…

1) We can doubt our salvation even though we have the faith of the Apostles. Because the Apostles also doubted their salvation.
...or...
2) We can doubt our salvation even though the Apostles did not. Because we don't have the faith of the Apostles.

Point 1) goes against the whole New Testament, as the Apostles never doubted their salvation. (Show me where the Apostles doubted! The disciples did .. but that was before the Resurrection ... see http://Godnoliar.com/john_the_baptist.htm ) The Aposltes NEVER doubted! You will not find a single example!

And Point 2) contradicts 2 Pet 1:1 which says believers have the faith of the Apostles.

OK! Hope that made sense…

I wonder... do you guys say that 1) the Apostles doubted their salvation and thus we can? Or, are you conceding that you think believers today do NOT have the faith of the Apostles (since the Apostles did not doubt, but "believers" today do)

OK... hope to hear your response to that! =)

Now, I want to point out a comment made by someone that I totally agree with. They wrote me,

"In the end it is only the grace of God that saves us, and it is only the Holy Spirit that assures us of our salvation."

My comment: OK!! So we agree that Holy Spirit assures believers the Gospel is true. And since the Gospel says "everyone believing is justified", the moment the Spirit convicts you of the Gospel, you are infallibly assured of your salvation. You simply can't believe the Gospel without realizing you are justified, can you? Because God has eternally joined together belief with justification =)

And there are some verses of Scripture screaming out on this point. John 4:14 says that "believers never thirst" because they have a "well of water springing up in them unto everlasting life". So the work of the Spirit is to annihilate doubting so that believers never thirst for justification.

Maybe you could also look at Hebrews 11:3. "By faith we understand the worlds were framed by the Word of God." So, it's a man's belief in the Gospel, that proves to Him God exists. There's no way we could know there is a Just God and Savior who created the worlds, unless we understand Christ's person and work.

Now, a man's belief in the Gospel not only proves to the man that God exists. Paul also said we are to have "peace and joy in believing" (Romans 15:13). So belief in the Gospel is the way a man knows he is saved. (The way he has peace, joy and assurance).

This means that understanding Gospel not only proves 1) that God exists, it also proves to me I am saved. So the evidence to me that the Bible is the Word of God is the same evidence to me that I'm saved. That is, the proof the Bible is the word of God is the authority of God stamped in the Gospel. But the Gospel in me is also the proof I am saved, so you I can't call in question my salvation without calling in question God's authority itself !

Can you see why John says "the one not believing God has called Him a liar" (1 Jn 5:10) ? Indeed, "this is the testimony -- God has given US [believers] everlasting life". So anyone who doubts they are saved, doubts the testimony, and calls God a liar.

Sobering stuff indeed!

Psalms are NOT about David's experiences

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:03:33 GMT

Imagine...

A preacher gets up in the pulpit and reads the parable of the sowers. He reflects upon the context of this passage and he also talks about the Jewish agricultural customs in Christ's day. Then based on his grammatical-historical analysis, the preacher concludes by listing what he think the "soils" and "seed" might represent.

Did you notice something? The preacher never looked at Christ's infallible interpretation of the parable.

And what would you think of this preacher? Most people would accuse him of "exalting himself above Christ". This is true -- the preacher is ignoring Christ's interpretation, and exalting his own methods and ideas above Christ's.

Now, think about the Psalms.

Why is it OK for preachers to interpret the PSALMS (without looking at Christ and the Apostle's interpretation of the Psalms)?

Christ and the Apostles applied at least 30 Psalms to Christ. So isn't your preacher "exalting himself above Christ" when he says a Psalm is describing DAVID, when Christ said the Psalm was describing HIMSELF ALONE?

Introducing...

The Psalms Challenge

"to prove that none of the Psalms are about David's personal experiences"

http://psalms.pbwiki.com

Jonathan Edwards -- Why 500 pages, mate?

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:02:29 GMT

Here's something that irritates me, and I am wondering if it annoys you too.

I mean all those books by the Puritans where they spend pages and pages describing what it is like to be under the operations of the Holy Spirit. Now, aren't these Puritan writers implying that a man can be under the operation of the Holy Spirit and not even know it? If not, then why did Jonathan Edwards for example, spend 500 pages trying to explain what true "spiritual experiences" are? Isn't he implying that the Holy Spirit cannot make a man know he is saved ? For example, if in everyday life, someone wrote a book called "How to know you have experienced childbirth", they would be implying that childbirth is something that can happen to you without you knowing it. So when Edwards writes "how to know you have truly been converted", isn't he implying that the Holy Spirit can't properly cause that change of mind to be obvious to the believer?

It seems Edwards in "Religious Affections" has done the equivalent of writing a book about "How to know you are standing in the light of the sun". Because the only operation of the Holy Spirit is to enlighten the mind. That is, to furnish it with understanding of the words of God that are already written.

"Because it is God who said, "Out of darkness Light shall shine," who shone in our hearts to give the brightness of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (2 Cor 4:6)

Could it be -- that the reason Edwards spends 500 pages trying to describe "how to know if you're saved" is because he made faith dark and mystical. You know how he says "faith is more than belief" and "faith is more than intellectually understanding and believing the Gospel". Well, since he makes faith complex and mystical, no wonder it took him 500 pages to explain "how to know you're having true spiritual experiences from faith, and not experiences from a counterfeit".

Since he denied that conversion is simply a change of mind from falsehood to truth, it took him 500 pages to explain how in the world you can know you are converted. Because having the truth in you is useless (Edwards says that you can have the truth in you but still go to hell), Edwards is forced to explain how men should use their love/humility etc as evidences of salvation. (Because the truth cannot be an evidence of salvation, since unbelievers already have it according to Edwards, that only leaves humility/love etc as evidences of salvation).

And thus Edwards must show how we can be sure our love and humility is genuine and not counterfeit. Since the Pharisees/Jews were sincere and zealous, and yet lost (Rom 10:3), Edwards was posed with a dilemma. How can the believer be sure that his sincerity and zealousness is not counterfeit like the Jews was?

Can you ever be sure?

See how making sincerity/humility/love the "evidence" to a man that he is saved would cause the man to doubt?

On the other hand, if you say that faith is simply "receiving the testimony of God" (John 3:33), then you CANNOT doubt your salvation. Because its impossible to believe the infallible testimony, and not realize you're a believer!

Good People go to Hell

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:01:46 GMT

Everything an unbeliever does is sinful, right? (Heb 11:6).

An unbeliever's "prayers", "seeking", "repentance" and "turning from sin" -- all these things are sin (Rom 10:14). In fact, all their feelings of "remorse", "regret", "guilt", "sorrow" must be sin. Any attempt to be "humble" or "sincerely turn from sin", is in fact sin. Because all the unbeliever's works are works of unbelief. If they try to be sincerely "seeking salvation", it's because they don't think Christ was sincere enough. By "seeking faith in order to be saved", an unbeliever shows they think they are capable to "finishing off" what Christ "failed" to do.

Scary, huh? Especially when you hear ministers (not of Christ) telling unbelievers to pray. Because everything an unbeliever does is sin, that means that praying will only serve to increase the unbeliever's sin (condemnation). In fact, every attempt by an unbeliever to "stop sinning" only increases their condemnation.

Take for example an unbeliever called John. Now, imagine a preacher told John to "seek after faith" in order to be saved. And suppose John follows the preacher's advice and tries hard to stop sinning, he prays, sings hymns, tries to be convicted by preaching, seeks to be around church members. But remember, he's doing all these things "in order to be saved".

In other words, the preacher has lead John to believe salvation by works. Every work John does of "seeking salvation" is actually an attempt to make himself better than other men (as if just being better than other corrupt people is enough to make the perfect God of the Bible pleased with you !).

In summary
1) regarding unbelievers -- all their "seeking", all attempts to "stop sinning", to "prayer" and all feelings of "remorse" -- all these things are sin (Heb 11:6, Rom 14:23).

2) in fact, any attempt by an unbeliever to "seek salvation" will only increase the damnation of an unbeliever. For example, any attempt by an unbeliever to "humble" himself and "seek faith" shows that this unbeliever thinks Christ's work was incomplete and insufficient. By thinking that humility is a requirement for salvation, the unbeliever is showing he thinks something is required of him ON TOP of the work of Christ. He might as well say "Christ died in vain".

3) popular preachers who tell unbelievers to "become humble" and "seek faith", are saying that Christ didn't do enough, and men need to add to the work of Christ in order to be saved.

"whatever is not of faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

"without faith it is impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6)

EXTRA -- Discussion with Tad (a Calvinist from GA).

Tad wrote me,

"What we must do is love the sinner and despise the sin ..only encourage .. ask them to pray .. look into scripture .. 'seek and ye sha'll find'. im speaking of the seeker . someone is at the end of their road and calling out to God ( you may call it prayer or a "cry" ). I'm not speaking of an individual who claims to be 'spiritual' .. i'm speaking of someone who is actively reading the Scripture .. and seeking to know God , as only as allows ."

My response:

G'day Tad!

Thanks for your msg.

I assume we both agree that an unbeliever's prayer is sin? "Those in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:8). Prayers of unbelievers do not please God, because unbelievers always pray "to the god of this world ... who rules in their hearts ... their father is the devil" (John 8:44 etc).

So when an unbeliever prays, he's praying to the devil. If he prays "for faith", his prayer (by definition) is a work of unbelief. If he "seeks to become spiritual", then it logically follows that his seeking is a lust of the flesh (since he admits he is not of the Spirit when he "seeks" to become spiritual).

So you are telling unbelievers to sin, right? Because an unbeliever's pray = sin. In fact, you're telling unbelievers to pray to the devil. "The Gentiles sacrifice to devils". (1 Cor 10:20). In other words, when an unbeliever prays, he is always praying to a devil (a god of his own mind).

The apostles on the other hand told men to pray "with faith, not wavering" (James 1). They told men TO BELIEVE and commanded unbelievers to obey the whole Law WITH FAITH. They did NOT tell men to "pray for faith", since a prayer for faith, must always (by definition) be a prayer of unbelief.

You will never find them telling men *how* to become a believer or how to be converted. That would be as ridiculous as telling an animal how to become a believer! (Unbelievers are "brute beasts", Jude 1:10)

Oh... I forgot something.

Tad - Do you think prayer is a requirement in order to be saved?

If no, then why do you tell unbelievers to pray BEFORE salvation? If prayer is NOT required for salvation, then why should they bother?

I suspect you think prayer is a requirement for salvation....(That's why you tell unbelievers to do it, in order to be saved)

Romans 10: 20 But Isaiah is very bold and says, "I was found by those not seeking Me; I became known to those not inquiring after Me." Quoting Isa. 65:1

Isaiah 30: 21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, This is the way, walk in it, when you go right, or when you go left.

Doubting Calvinists and Agnostics -- Is there any difference?

Sun, 13 May 2007 15:00:20 GMT

A dialogue showing there is no difference between a Doubting Calvinist (a Calvinist doubting their salvation) and an Atheist/Agnostic (a skeptic doubting their salvation)

AGNOSTIC: So you think I'm in a dangerous situation, do you?

DOUBTING CALVINIST: Yes, I do. And I'm praying that God will bring you out of it.

Agnostic: OK, I admit that I know nothing about what is going to happen to me after death. I may be happy. I may be miserable. I may be neither. Indeed, to me it's all a matter of doubt and uncertainty.

Doubting Calvinist: I pity you from the bottom of my heart.

Agnostic: Of course, you must have a comfortable state of mind. You must be triumphing in the hope of the glory that awaits you when you leave this world.

Doubting Calvinist: Well ... I think I have a good hope through grace ... I do hope I shall be happy after death.

Agnostic: Wait a second! It sounds like you are saying that you are not actually confident respecting your destination after death. Do you mean to say that you are not absolutely certain of being happy after death? It seems that you have some doubts about your eternity!

Doubting Calvinist: Well... I think that I have a well grounded hope. It seems the Spirit has worked in me. But I can't be presumptuous. It's not humble for a Christian to speak presumptuously about being elect.

Agnostic. Can you please talk straight? Are you certain that you shall be happy after death? Or are there some doubts in your mind?

Doubting Calvinist: Well ... I can't say that I am absolutely certain. All I can say is that if I persevere I will get to heaven.

Agnostic. Then let us be friends! Or should i say "brother skeptics"! Why should you and I quarrel about our views? From what you have just said, it's clear that there is barely a difference between our positions. It's really only semantics. I'm without religion and confess that I am uncertain about my future. And you with your religion are also uncertain about your future. We're both uncertain about our future. Surely, if we are both skeptical about our futures after death, we don't have much to disagree about!

(There is no difference between a Doubting Calvinist and an Agnostic)